I totally agree with your analysis. Even in fights that have the potential to really benefit from quick moving such as Hodir or Vezax there will be virtually no dps increase. Even if there might be a tiny theoretically dps increase it is so insignificant that it is smaller than normal deviation that you get by bad luck, latency, a small distraction etc.
Pesonally I think 12 hit is a fine enchant and it usually saves you the need for a gem to reach the hitcap. I am always between 260 - 270 hit so removing Icewalker is no option and the 12 crit are welcome although quit weak.

I agree more with your position that Gray's. Most mechanics that require you to move give you a warning beforehand. If you can't get out of the way, it's probably because you weren't paying attention. In that case 8% more margin for error will probably still not save you, because you weren't paying attention to begin with. It's very hard to quantify though. Just like wearing stamina on a heavy damage fight is difficult to validate. If too many people are dying you should consider getting some extra stamina and seeing if that helps, but then if people are taking damage just because they are being inattentive then a couple hundred extra stamina will not fix the problem. Context is everything here, and the raider should make up his own mind as to whether or not he/she thinks it's worth it.

Moving is also about moving as much as you have to and then STOP. You can gain a log of time by also not moving MORE than you are required to.

@ grisan
Yep, it's situational at best. For the "oh crap" movements, this seems like it would be wise, but then again, as a good raider, I am trying to avoid/minimize those.

@Lherin
You're absolutely right. It's more about knowing when to move and how much to move than 8% faster. I see the 8% bonus being useful for two people. It might save someone who has poor awareness and it would be a solid casting time upgrade for someone who moves perfectly.

Like I stated in the post, I don't think using Tuskarr's Vitality to compensate for a slow reaction time breeds good raiders. I think it encourages lazy raiding as people will try to wait to move instead of moving first and then resuming DPS faster.

I think the discussions are really focusing on the wrong part of the speed benefit. It's not about saving your bacon, it's about getting to a safe place faster so you can start casting again. Now that Relevart put some numbers to it, it's easy to see that if you have to gem for hit to make up for Icewalker, it just doesn't make sense.

However, when we consider set bonuses the gap is much smaller. A yellow/blue combo in the T8 pants gets you 7SP. The Cord of the White Dawn is 7SP with red/yellow. And the Pendant of Fiery Havoc and Drape of Mortal Downfall are each 5 SP with a single yellow.

While I don't think this will tip the scales in favor of Tuskarrr's, I think it will bring the numbers a lot closer.

That's an excellent point about sockets and using socket bonuses to dampen the loss of SP and crit.

Graylo made an excellent point on his blog comments when he said that it is much harder to quantify and demonstrate the bonus of 8% increased movement speed. It's very difficult to show that you survived because of the speed boost where you might have died otherwise. It's tough to say "I squeezed out that extra 200 DPS because I got into position a fraction of a second sooner".

There ARE benefits to Tuskarr's Vitality. They are less tangible and really, a raider ought to pick his boot enchant based off his/her playstyle. If you're always pushing the buck and trying to squeeze in some extra DPS time, then maybe Tuskarr's is for you. I just hesitate to endorse it for all raiders because of the loss of reaction time it could cause.

Generally, I believe people will be as lazy as they are allowed to be. This enchant will allow raiders to be lazier and I think the majority of raiders will use it as an excuse to move later, not reposition faster.

Personally I don't by the arguement that Tuskarr's breeds lazy raiders.

For example, lets say Lazy Moonkin (LM) gets targed with a rocket blast on Mimiron. I guarantee you he isn't thinking "I have Tuskarr's. I can wait a second." He's either thinking "oh crap, I have to move," or "crap my casts almost done". Those thoughts are independant of what enchant he has. My point is if he's dumb enought to stand there with tuskarr's, he's probably dumb enough to stand there with Icewalker.

I realize that you haven't directly made this point, but I'm tired of seeing the "I never get hit by void zones" comments on my blog and others. To anyone that says this I call BS. None of us are perfect, and I've seen awesome players eat a void zone because they get distracted or something crazy happens.

And lets be honest here. Tuskarr's isn't going to save the person who is completely zoned out. Nothing would because they don't even see it spawn. Where Tuskarr's helps is when your attention gets shifted some where else very briefly and you notice it a fraction of a second late.

I don't know about you guys but there have been plenty of times when I am called on to battle rez some one. In such a situation I have to target the person. Figure out where they are and if they are in range. This cause me to look at my unit frames and at my cast bar. Therefore if I'm unlucky and I get targetd for something at the same time I'm probably going to notice it slighly late. This doesn't mean I'm a bad player or lazy or anything. It means I got bit by RNG.

I realize I'm coming off a little ranty her and I don't mean to. However, I'm tired of seeing posts equating Tuskarr's to bad players. Look at the rosters of Ensidia and other top raiding guilds and you'll see plenty of caster DPS with Tuskarr's.

The fact of matter is that Tuskarr's provides a little bit of utility that you can't realistically get anywhere else, and Icewalker is a very small sacrifice to pick it up.

"I guarantee you he isn't thinking "I have Tuskarr's. I can wait a second." He's either thinking "oh crap, I have to move," or "crap my casts almost done". Those thoughts are independant of what enchant he has. My point is if he's dumb enought to stand there with tuskarr's, he's probably dumb enough to stand there with Icewalker."

I guarantee you, you are wrong. I know people that think exactly like this. Either way, neither of us can prove what other people think, therefore both these opinions are valid and they are ONLY opinions.

Yes people use the enchant, but it's not universal. As far as what ensidia does. Ensidia simply executes very well, period. They are killing content in gear far lower than the rest of us. Their tactics wouldn't necessarily work for the rest of us because they play so well. Different guilds have different kinds of problems with fights. To say 'this guild does it this way' does not mean that it's a good idea to copy them. They don't seem to have problems with DPS as an example as they are beating DPS checks with ease, again in lesser gear than the rest of us.

I'm not saying you don't have a point. But just saying 'because ensidia does' doesn't advance your argument. Your math makes a case for it, but the bottom line is that it's impossible to prove either way, and so raiders are better off making up their own minds. Mine is made up, I won't use it, but I don't advise everyone to follow my example either.

I realize that you haven't directly made this point, but I'm tired of seeing the "I never get hit by void zones" comments on my blog and others. To anyone that says this I call BS. None of us are perfect, and I've seen awesome players eat a void zone because they get distracted or something crazy happens.

No one has said that here. I've never claimed to never make mistakes. But usually when I die, it's because my mistake is larger than 8%, which is why I don't think it will make a big difference for me. I lose more DPS in other ways than pure movement. Especially in the 'move too much' department. Usually if I make a mistake it is going to result in a bigger DPS loss than what the boots will provide. In other words, you will gain far more DPS by playing 'better' and making less mistakes, than you will from an enchant that may-or-may-not save you, or get you to where you are going just a bit faster.

"If he's dumb enought to stand there with tuskarr's, he's probably dumb enough to stand there with Icewalker."

Couldn't have said it better myself.

@Lherin Comment3

First off, nowhere did I say "because Ensidia does." People continually associate Tuskarr's with bad play and bad players and say things like this is an enchant for people with poor reaction times. Or this enchant will promote bad habits. My reason for bringing up Ensidia is to show that its not an enchant for bad players. Ensidia is clearly made up of some of the best players in the world. Since there Caster DPS near unanimously picks this enchant over Icewalker I think it is a good indication that Tuskarr's is for good players also.

The fact of the matter is good players are good no matter what their enchant is and bad players are bad. You claim to know people that would sit and think "I have tuskarr's, I can complete my cast," and therefore they shouldn't have tuskarrs. I would argue that they are bad players with both enchants and are probably going to die either way.

@Lherin comment 3

First, I never said anyone made that arguement here (but it is hinted at here and there). However, it is a common arguement made on my blog and other places.

Second, your point is completely irrelevant. I completely agree that playing better will increase my and almost everyone's dps more then having the Tuskarr's enchant, but we are not debating Tuskarr's vs Playing better. We are debating Tuskarr's vs Icewalker.

@Graylo

They aren't simply good players. They are the best players. And as I mentioned, just because the best players make a decision, it does not necessarily follow that this is the best decision for everyone. And we aren't debating about the merits of the enchant for 'the best of the best', we are talking about it for the other 99% of the player base (or at least I am), which is why I think things are not as clear cut as you make them out to be. Perhaps Ensidia can do a fight with only 4 healers, freeing them up to bring more dps, but another guild can't get it done with less than 6 healers, and so it changes the configuration of the raid and thus the tactics must change.

Let me be explicit here so that I'm sure we are talking about the same thing, because I'm not debating about what other people are saying on other blogs. I haven't necessarily read those blogs, I'm arguing about the points made right here, and ONLY here.

1- Neither of us can prove what other people think. We are both making assumptions based on our own experiences. I'm not pulling these ideas out of a hat. I know people that think exactly the way I've described, as I'm sure that you don't. That doesn't make my point more valid than yours, or yours more valid than mine. I equate it to be much the same problem as DPS meters hurting raids. People become too obsessed with topping the meters and then don't properly get the job done, which does not necessarily involve doing more DPS. Now, good players ignore this and play well regardless of what the meters say, and they kill more bosses than meter obsessed guilds do. So then, am I saying that meters are inherently bad? No I'm not. Just like I'm not saying that Tuskarr's is inherently bad. I'm saying that in the hands of the 'average' player these tools often result in different results than they do in the expert player. And because the benefits of this particular enchant are much less cut and dry than your regular +stat increase I think it doesn't serve the general public to declare that it is the defacto enchant to get.

It's a lot like use vs passive trinkets. In theory the use trinket is better, provided you trigger it at the best times. However if you are someone that frequently forgets to use it, then your real world results will be better with a passive trinket that just procs when it procs.

2- Play style affects performance, on some things more than others. I think this is a particular case where playstyle has a LARGER influence on the utility of the enchant than anything else and is entirely relevant to the discussion. Which is why I maintain that it is important to mention. Because you can't simply theorycraft this one and say "Here, option X is better". It's one of those "it depends" choices that players have to make.

[continued darn 4096 character limit in comments]

[continued darn 4096 character limit in comments]

3- I think it is wrong to declare that Tuskarr's > Icewalker.

Firstly, this can't be proven, not by you, not by Relevart and not by me. I also think it is wrong to declare the inverse. I instead would encourage people to make up their own minds on this one, because I really don't think the benefits of Tuskarr's will be realized by the majority of the player base. But I freely admit that this is only my opinion, based on passed observation of player play.

Like you said, the bad player is a bad player. And a mistake is a mistake. Tuskarr's will probably not help in either of those situations. Having 12 hit on your boots brings everyone a certain passive benefit that helps them get to the cap and puts a bit of insurance in their pocket in terms of the RNG chance of being resisted. Tuskarr's brings a benefit that is certainly CAN be very useful in many situations. And, certainly, if you are already sitting at something like 280 hit, you are better off swapping your enchants.

But players need to then make sure that they playstyle doesn't change, and that they don't get stuck in the mentality of thinking 'well I can just finish this cast'.

It's like the rockets on mimiron. None of us had any problems getting out of the path provided you were paying attention. People that got hit simply made a mistake and were too concentrated somewhere else. After the change was put in a friend in another guild reported to me that MORE people were getting hit by rockets because people figured they now had enough time to finish their casts instead of moving right away. And that's exactly the kind of stuff I'm talking about.

Please Note: Relevart’s post was sparked by a post made on my blog, which he referenced. I understand you may not have read it,. If you would like to you can find it here: http://graymatterwow.blogspot.com/2009/06/raiding-101-boot-enchants.html. My comments where made based upon the reactions to my blog post here and in other places. I understand how that can be a little confusing, but at the same time you’ve completely missed the points I am making. Here I will try and explain them better.

Your comments in this debate are irrelevant because they are trying to dispute points I DID NOT make.

1. My Ensidia comment: No where did I say “Ensidia uses Tuskarr’s therefore everyone should.”

Relevart and others have said that Tuskarr’s will promote bad play. He also implied that good players don’t need it be cause “a good raider is already moving out of the fire.” The implication being made by these points is that Tuskarr’s is for bad players. My point is that Tuskarr’s has benefits for good players that won’t become lazy and already move out of the fire 99% of the time. I highlighted those reasons on my blog, and I used Ensidia as an example of good players that use the enchant.

2: No defacto Enchant Please point to the place where I said Tuskarr’s is the “defacto” boot enchant or “declare that Tuskarr's > Icewalker.” In fact on my blog I said “Taking the Icewalker Enchant is not a bad way to go.”

Also I do not doubt that you know people who think Tuskarr’s gives them more time to cast while in a void zone, but here is the question. Is that because they are bad players or because the enchant is bad? My point is that it is a problem of the player and they are likely to try and get the cast off with Icewalker or any other enchant as well. Good players don’t think about void zones, they react to them. People who think about the move to late and die.

Conclusion: I’m not going to lie. I think Tuskarr’s is a better enchant the Icewalker for 90% of the raiding moonkin out there, and for the 10% that it’s not I think they probably have gearing issues that make Icewalker overly attractive. That said, I’m not going to call anyone a noob for using Icewalker, and I have stated that it is a decent option in the past.

Please do not imply that I am saying thing that I am not. Once you realize that I am not saying “Tuskarr’s is the best choice for everyone all the time” or “Ensidia uses it so everyone has to,” then I think you’ll realize I’ve made some good points.

@Graylo

We are really starting to split hairs on both ends here Gray. On the one hand you are allowing yourself to infer from other people's comments by saying things like "The implication being made by these points is that Turskarr's is for bad players", while at the same time not allowing others to do the same thing about your comments. It's one or the other. We can argue about 'exactly' what is being typed, or we can argue about the implications of what we are saying. If I want to throw your logic back at you: no one said "Tuskarr's is for bad players" anywhere in these comments or on this blog, so your argument is irrelevant. I don't happen to subscribe to that, but that's the logic I'm seeing being applied here.

Yes it's true, you never said "Because Ensidia does something we should do it", but you implied that because top guilds are using it, that it must be good, or that it doesn't encourage bad play, but correlation does not equal causation. If I got that wrong then I apologize. But you need to re-read what has been written here if implications are not allowed to be brought to the table, because you are doing your fair share of implying things that other people have not actually said.

The point that has been raised a few times, which you choose to disagree with (which is perfectly fine) is that Tuskarr's _can_ encourage bad play. I am a supporter of this view. I'm not saying that this is an absolute. I'm not saying it will create lazy players tomorrow. I'm saying it has the potential to alter player behavior, because I've seen this with my own two eyes. Just as the example I gave of DPS meters. Meters are not inherently bad. I'm sure most of the best players use meters (even I use meters). BUT I have seen how, time and time again, meters have caused otherwise good players to make bad decisions. So I think it's important that if I start talking about the benefits of running meters, that front and center I need to let people know that there _could_ be other ramifications. Much like your post about women in guilds. The fact was, as you acknowledged, that men will sometimes act dumb around women. It's something that bears mentioning because it's something that will potentially come into play at some point, but it's not a fault with women.

This is why I don't think you can talk about Tuskarr's responsibly without also mentioning the potential it has to change player play. Icewalker doesn't change the way you play. But Tuskarr's certainly _can_.

In one post you are contradicting yourself. Yes it's true, you don't use the word "defacto", but then you say 90% of the player base should use the enchant. Do you not see these two things as being the same? If 90% of the player base was using the enchant, it would be the defacto enchant no?

I haven't missed any of your points. I think you made some very valid points. Most of the points you made were made 2 years ago when melee had these very same debates. But I don't think I need to mention your 'good' points since I agree with them. I'm only mentioning the points of contention because that's what debates are about :)

The central point we seem to be dancing around is whether or not Tuskarr's can alter player behavior. I contend that it can, because I've seen this happen with many similar things, and therefore this changes how 'valuable' an enchant it is.

Wow, lose internet for a few days and chaos breaks loose here!

@ Graylo

Here's why I think that Tuskarr's offers benefits only to a small number of players. In reality, we're talking about additional casting time around movement mechanics. Yes, this could allow some people to live when they otherwise would have died and on a very few mechanics possibly take less damage. However, I think its true selling point is the additional combat time a player can gain.

The problem then becomes "Who can really use this time?" The player that moves too late (as you stated) will still move too late and get gibbed. The player that moves too far will still move too far. In fact, he'll probably still move for the same amount of time as before the enchant, taking him 8% further away from wherever he was before. This is the player that keeps running with the Mark of the Faceless until the debuff wears off or runs out of the Overload until it goes off, not until they achieve range. There are a lot of these players.

In fact, the only people who can truly reap the benefits of this enchant are those players who are already optimizing their movement. They will see increased DPS time and therefore increased damage throughout the fight not because of Tuskarr's but because their raiding abilities and decisions are super sound. This player represents a very small fraction of the player base.

For the rest of the players, they might garner 3% or 4% cast time from their movement but every single one of those players will get 100% of the 12 crit offered by Icewalker. If they are < 13 hit shy of the cap they will also gain 100% of every point of hit they need.

I don't disagree that Tuskarr's is a great enchant. I think it is. Heck, my math showed just how little movement is needed to compensate for the lost enchant and some gem changes, a worst case scenario if you will. But to see that compensation, you need to be a technically sound raider. If we were all technically sound, then there would be a hell of a lot more Ensidia's out there.

@ Lherin

I think one of the best points you've made in your case was comparing this enchant to an on-use trinket. If a player forgets to use his on-use trinket, it is worthless. A good player (some might even say great) will align his trinket with damage boosts or haste buffs to garner the maximum out of his trinket. Likewise, a good (great) player will also know when he has moved far enough and can resume casting. A poor player will not. I stipulate that even the average player will not.

I tend to agree with the idea that when I mess up, my mistake is bigger than 8%. I don't think this directly discounts the use of Tuskarr's however. I think what it says is that I have room to improve my game. But saying that there is room to improve so I shouldn't take an upgrade is akin to telling someone with a poor spell rotation that they should pass on all SP gear until they get their shit together. Clearly, more SP will give them more DPS, so they should do both: take the gear and tighten up their rotation. The same is true of this enchant. If the player aspires to run with the best, then that player should probably strongly consider Tuskarr's along with recognizing that in order to see the benefit from this enchant they will have to move like a pro, just far enough and at the right times. The movement work could be done with Icewalker, but if your ultimate goal is to have the perfect movement, I'll say what my Basketball coach used to say: "Practice like you want to play".

@ Anon1

I don't think I meant to imply that the player was dumb enough to stand there. I meant to imply that the player was using poor judgement about when to move and giving him more leeway will only lead to even poorer judgement on his part.

--------------------------------------------
Ok, so this turned into a much hotter topic than I had anticipated and I feel like this has turned into a battlefield. Let me grab my popcorn!

Wow, look what I missed!

I can see both sides of this argument, really. Unfortunately, and shame on me, I had never considered using an enchant other than Icewalker. The 12 hit AND 12 crit has always been appealing to me.

I think the arguments thus far have ignored one minor detail: having exactly (or close to exactly) 263 hit rating is a difficult feat. Really, we're talking about a very small segment of the popular that would be put under hit-cap by changing their boot enchant.

For me, it would come down to 12 crit versus 8% movement speed. I'm honestly considering changing to movement speed, not because I'm a bad player, but because it provides convenient utility in a raid dungeon that focuses on movement-heavy fights.

We can't cast while we're moving. That's irrefutable fact. That's lost DPS time. If you're running from Kologarn's eye beams or running into a Moonlight on Hodir or avoiding any of the numerous crashes, rockets, or void zones, you're losing DPS time. The more you're moving, the less damage you're doing.

The benefit of faster speed is not the cast before moving, but rather the cast after moving. It's not "getting off that last cast", but rather "getting off the next cast earlier".

If you can stay above hit-cap without Icewalker, go with Tuskarr. If you need the hit, go with Icewalker. But then, I never advocate gemming for hit.