Well said :)

At the end of the day it is a game, a game that players compete with each other and pay money to a company to support and run... a company that must strive to keep its customers. If players are not enjoying themselves because they feel that, to win, they must raid more often than they'd like to (the WotLK 10s + 25s model), then the players choose between sanity (time) and that competition. Many players have burnt out and quit the game from raiding the same content repetitively in order to maximize gear. Blizzard, as a company, is wisely addressing that with their shared lockouts and badge caps: a good business plan, imo. The only other thing they could do is generate in-game NPC raid leaders that deal with all the drama, and that would probably cause such an AI, if it were developed, to catch fire and then implode on the first day it went live.

It's not fair on the burnt-out officers to shoulder the burden of leadership to drag along leeches through the highest-rewarding dungeons. The concept of rewarding people who do the same level of work as those "casual" 10-man raiders is flawed... especially in circumstances where they may actually do less work, because the 25-man raider may not be required to sport two PvE specs, two different roles geared out for raid flexibility, heal more than just one person or hot the raid, or carry more proportional raid weight upon their shoulders. A 25-man raid is more likely to carry a guy who dies to every cleave and fire than a 10-man raid (assuming appropriate gear levels for the instance), and yet the 25-man are a half-tier better rewarded (nevermind legendaries).

Those that argue against the change either don't understand what 10-strict raiding really is like, or they feel threatened that their "prestige" is being marginalized by the gear homogenization, or they feel threatened that their guild will not survive the expansion because the raiders will all prefer the 10-man format...

The fact of the matter is I just don't like them making 10 man = 25 man. They just are not the same, and I honestly believe they never will be, given Blizzard's track record with this issue. I don't think they're magically going to gain the ability to make them equivalent, so now I feel like I am going to be pigeonholed into doing 10 mans because everyone else is going to want to do them since they're easier to organize with the same gear/content and I'm not going to have anyone left to do 25 mans with. Wanting the same rewards for both is not very logical either way because they are very different - I don't think that the ice skaters in the olympics get to complain until they're given a swimming medal for winning 1st place in ice skating. Granted, this comparison is flawed for one reason - money.

The amount of coordination you need between 25 people is a lot more than you need between 10. It's pretty easy to find and train 10 people to follow directions but it isn't for a 25 man. This actually starts to matter when you do the more difficult content. I mean think about it, when you're doing Lich King, it doesn't matter if you have 10 or 25 people in the raid, one person standing in the defile and not moving at all is likely to wipe you. It's just that in 25 man there are 15 more people you have to make sure won't make this mistake.

The fact of the matter is that 25 man raids rewarded gear meant to help you defeat content of that magnitude and difficulty. 10 Man raids did the same. Sure everyone wants to better their character - but in what scope? Do you do ICC 25 so that you have good enough gear to do good DPS in heroic gundrak? That's how I see all these people doing ICC 25 for gear to do their 10 man. It just ruins the experience IF what you're trying to get is a 10 man only experience. The 10 man experience is there, people just choose to do things otherwise because like you said, they want more gear than they do a 10 man experience. And I don't see a problem in having a choice between those two since gear is meant to simply be a tool by which you can do the next step up content.

Sadly making these two raids equal is going to mean a lot more than scaling damage/health/healing needed, and that's where I don't think Blizzard is going to figure it out in time. I'd rather things stay as they are now than some hackneyed attempt at something new that's going to take them 2 expansions to figure out when they have a working system right now with plenty of choices (people just choose not to take certain choices, and that's on them).

-Poptart
http://www.poptartica.net

TRoO: You can call it Gear or you can call it the "desire to maximize one's character," but it means the same thing. Gear and DPS numbers mean more to you then the size of the raid. If the 10man size was more important then these things then you wouldn't participate in the 25man size. You can try and dress it up anyway you like, but it all means the same thing.

TSS: You're miss understanding my point. 40man raids are unlikely to come back and I think having 5man "raids" are just as unlikely. The point is you can't make everyone happy and you have to draw the line somewhere.

With this 10man=25man experement Blizzard is trying to have it's cake but eat it too, and it's not going to work.

Do you really think 10man raids are all of a sudden get respect because they get the same loot and are supposed to be tuned to the same difficulty? People think that the 10man vs 25man debate is big now wait until people start competing for server and world first kills?

The point is they can't make everyone happy, so they shouldn't try. They need to pick a format that works best for the game (and that may not be 25man raids) and stick with it. Otherwise they are just going to get more bitching about "why can't they make the game more accessable for 5man players" or "why can't they bring back the epic feel of 40mans." This isn't going to create more satisfaction. It's just going to create more arguement.

TPtC: "Forcing players to choose between rewards and enjoyment is silly."

What is really silly is if someone doesn't enjoy something but does it anyway for rewards that will be obsolite in 3 months.

If you don't enjoy 25mans, shouldn't do them. You're not being cheated out of gear. You're making a choice.

Recognition: Again, 10mans aren't going to magically get respect because they share gear and achievements. The 10man vs 25man debate will be worse because of this change not better.

And I've got another bit of news for you. People will be perfectly happy bing "King of the Paupers" as you call them. What do you think server first titles are? We will subdivide ourselves into groups to show rank and worth. Otherwise we would all be pissed that we are not in Paragon. The problem for 10mans is that this is currently impossible to do reasonably.

@ Poptart -
Honestly, with the possible exception of a tank, in a 25 man you are contributing less than you are in a 10 man. All things being equal, one would think that a 10 man would indicate a greater level or skill/reliability.

A crux of your argument is that you, the 25 man raider, should not be forced to do 10s despite the fact that you would rather do 25s. Yet it seems acceptable that a 10 man raider be forced into this simply because that's the way it is now.

Your Defile example is a good example of the balancing problems that come into play. Yet look at thinks like Pact of the Darkfallen. In a 10 man raid, this affects a larger percentage of players. Does that mean it should be scaled back further in 10 man?

It is true that 25 man raids reward greater gear because it allows you to defeat encounters of that magnitude and difficulty. However, it would be just as true of 10 mans if they were tuned differently. You seem to believe that Blizzard was able to balance 10 mans to 10 man gear and 25 mans to 25 man gear. Why is it such a stretch to believe that they can tune a 10 man fight to 25 man gear? It should be obvious that not all fights would be exactly identical in difficulty. There will be some that feel harder on 10 than on 25. This is much like the difficulty of some fights given raid composition.

See, you say things like "The 10 man experience is there, people just choose to do things otherwise because like you said, they want more gear than they do a 10 man experience." Yet the 25 man raider gets his cake and eats it too. The problem is, you're the kid with the cake. You don't want to see that maybe the 25 man raider should do the raid for the experience or raid 10s for the "ease" (since you believe they will be inherently easier).

Don't take this the wrong way, but you're happy with the system because it gives you the choice you're looking for. You also assign the majority of other players to your mentality. If this were true, why would Blizzard even be attempting this?

@ Graylo

TRoO: You're missing the point I'm trying to make. My point is that I shouldn't HAVE to choose between playstyle or gear. You, as a 25 man raider, don't have to make that choice.

TSS: No, I did understand your point there. A line must be drawn. But where we differ is on where the line gets drawn. You want a line that is already drawn because it already suits your needs. I said it to Poptart and I'll say it here too. You're happy with the system because it gives you the choice you're looking for. You also assign the majority of other players to your mentality. If this were true, why would Blizzard even be attempting this? And if its not true, then you aren't in the majority. So why should Blizzard cater to the minority. That's not very solid business.

Of course 10 mans wont get the same respect magically. I would expect Blizzard to separate 10 and 25 man first kill achievements. It's almost as if you're taking an apocalyptic approach to this. Who's to say that 10s wont get overtuned and all the 25 mans come out being easier?

You bring up an interesting point (and one I agree with) when you say Blizzard should pick a format and go with it. Allow me to offer that maybe they are. Maybe they picked a format and are now in the process of phasing out the other format. I think they were unhappy with the transition from 40 to 10/25 and they don't want to repeat that.

TPtC: Yes, I raid 25 mans because I enjoy having the best gear slightly more than I enjoy the raiding environment in a 10. I'm also on the verge of quitting the game because dealing with 25 man issues has become ridiculous. I can say that I'm not the only person who feels this way with confidence. I've been attempting to gather a solid group of players who feel exactly the same way I do about the raids and will hopefully be forming a 10 man when Cataclysm drops.

As for the whole cheated out of gear, I can't help but come back to the fact that right now, you're getting everything you want. It's natural to want to cling to this. But what is it about a 25 man raid where each member makes a smaller contribution to the overall goal that makes it better? More people = Harder? Why? Because it's always been that way? I think you're allowing history and your own satisfaction with the state of affairs to impact your outlook (and why wouldn't you, I'm doing the same thing).

Recognition: Honestly, server first titles seem like tools to help spur progression. A recognition of a toons involvement in a unique event on the server. I suppose you can look at them as Kings on the server. But the King of the Paupers thing only works if you have two distinct separate parts. Right now, Blizzard is planning on allowing 25 mans to split into 10 mans within the same lockout. There would be nothing stopping 25 man raiders from dropping down to 10 man after a tier and giving that 10 man a boost it wouldn't normally have. King of the Paupers is great where there are only paupers afoot. I think it will be impossible to do reasonably if you keep the lockout and lower the gear from 10 man.

Maestro-
If they were to limit me to only one raid lockout per week where I'd have to choose between 10 and 25 man, I'd be perfectly fine with that component of it.

And it's a stretch because Blizzard has attempted to do that in the past and failed. People seem to forget. Given itemlevel, 10 man ICC heroic modes would be tuned to 25 man normal gear. And I can tell you from stepping in ICC 10 HM with ICC 25 gear, Blizzard did NOT tune 90% of that instance correctly. It's a joke. Except Lich King, which I will not comment on because I haven't killed him HM before. So I will give the benefit of the doubt that that fight is well tuned. So yeah, right there is Blizzard's attempt to tune things to 25 man gear (10m HM loot is ilevel 264, the same itemlevel as ICC 25 normal loot). Big flop. :(

If your players in 25 man are contributing less than they do in 10, that's an attitude problem and not a raid problem. Everyone needs to contribute the most they can in the particularly difficult 25 man encounters, which is why I like them so much (and feel like all 25 man encounters should be that way!).

Also, I don't believe pact of the darkfallen is a good example for these purposes given that it gives off an AoE that will affect everyone nearby in the area as well, damaging more players overall in a 25 man raid than it would in a 10 man raid (as it should). Note that also it affects 3 people in 25 man rather than 2, and also hits them for more damage overall. And still you point out that this isn't an equal balance.. this is my exact point. You can't just assign bigger numbers and more players involved to balance between 10 and 25. It's more complicated than that, to a point where I don't think it's going to be properly figured out.

This whole business of "well IF 10 mans were like this then it would work.." doesn't sit well with me. Blizzard has tried to balance like this before and it just doesn't fly. People keep assuming they will do it right when they've yet to do so, so I don't see any reason to assume they will suddenly change. "Having cake and eating it too" is pretty subjective. Part of the benefit to 10 mans is the ease of setup and smaller raid size. THAT is the benefit you trade for the gear scaling. I could easily say "well 10 man raiders get to do the same raid instances as 25 man raiders except they don't have to wrangle 25 people to get it to work". I mean you even are saying that the headache of trying to get a 25 man together proper is making you want to quit it's so frustrating. And yes, I believe it will be inherently easier. Because it always has been. If/when Blizzard makes these changes and they actually manage to balance them, then I won't fight against it. But until then I see no reason to be happy about Blizzard throwing a good thing to the wind in favor of something that might end up ok.

@ Poptart -

ICC 10 HM were tuned to the ilevel below what they drop, not what they drop. That means ICC 10 normal gear, not ICC 25 normal gear. ICC 25 normal gear is what you get for beating them. So you're overgearing the content and it feels easy. I'm sorry, but I don't see this as Blizzard doing it wrong. It seems pretty right to me.

You mistake my percent contribution for something that deals with effort. We have no way to measure that in game, so I'm not looking at that at all. I'm looking at sheer numerical contribution to the raid. What percentage of damage or healing or prevented damage are you responsible for? It is greater in a 10 man.

As for the Pact, it was simply an example. 2/10 > 3/25. Naturally, the damage has been scaled, as Blizzard did not balance Pact to be equivalent for 10 and 25 man. In some regards it is more. In some it is less. It would be asinine to expect every fight to feel identical. Yet there are clearly opportunities to make mechanics on 10 man more difficult than they are on 25 man to balance out such things as space.

Just as you don't like my speculative points, I don't agree with your "benefits" for 10 mans. There's usually 1 raid leader. In a 25 man, that means 24 of you don't have that stress. In a ten man, it means 9 dont. But if you're not that raid organizer, you don't feel any different in a 10 than in the 25. And there are much more raiders than there are raid leaders. Arguing that perspective just doesn't hold weight.

I'm not saying the headache of putting together a 25 man makes me want to quit. I'm a raider. If I can't get someone else to raid lead, I simply wouldn't have time to play this game. 10 or 25. I've done my share of raidleading and honestly, I had an easier time with the 25 man format. It was easier to have extra raiders on the roster because absences were more frequent. In a 10 man guild, I found myself having to sit people regularly is order to have a sub just in case. The sitting raiders in the 10 were much less happy.

Arguing that Blizzard has always made 10s easier so they always will be easier is nonsensical. They have been designed to be easier, this is true. That was Blizzards goal and they seem to have met that. Now their goal is to have them be equivalent. They could just as reasonably do this.

It seems to me like a lot of speculation on this is coming from the standpoint that they had this idea the minute they told us. It's probably been baking for a long time and a lot of people have looked at just the things we are talking about. I don't think it's far-fetched to imagine it might actually come out ok. Also, GC said that if everyone is doing 10s, they will address that issue.

I probably should have made this a blog post in its own right, too, but I have a backlog of posts that I want to do, so I don't want to flood my site with rambles :P


I agree very much regarding the feeling of obligation for people who want to be in their BiS gear.

When I was a 10 man raider, I always felt like I was "unfinished". Not because I wanted people to ooh and ahh over my gear (which is always nice, of course), or because I felt I needed the gear to raid the content, but because I felt like my character was in gear limbo - dressed in equipment that was *appropriate* for what I was doing, but still not the best.

I like to strive to be the best, and to "finish" my character, but if my BiS gear is permanently out of reach, it makes me feel uneasy. Unfinished. Wrong. Fidgety. I don't even like thinking about it now! And, of course, this leads to the feeling of being obliged to try to get into 25man runs in order to fix that problem.

While I do agree on some of his points, I believe that many 25man raiders, Graylo included, don't understand the drive that many 10man (non-strict) raiders have to go do 25s. Unless you've been a 10man-only raider, I don't think you can "get it".

Many 25man raiders don't like doing 10 mans - I personally enjoy the 10 man format, but hate being obliged to run the same content twice per week because of the need to maximise badges. I suppose you could say "if you really hated 10 mans, you could opt out." Yep, I sure could, but then I would lag behind the rest of my guild, and be considered extremely slack for not maximising my character ASAP. So I sacrifice a few hours a week, doing something I don't want to do (double raiding), because I feel obliged to. Because I have a desire to maximise my character (and also to fulfil guild expectations), I sacrifice enjoyment for improvement. You may think that is "silly", but that is how I want to progress my character.

I don't enjoy putting on a full suit of 10man gear and thinking "this is the best I can get". So while I don't jump for joy at the prospect of doing the raids themselves, the tradeoff is the enjoyment that I get from improving my character.

It's NOT about bigger numbers being more important. It's not about shiny epics.

It's about improvement beyond what is currently available to us "by default".

You can't just say that because progressing my gear and my character is important to me, outweighing my dislike for 25s, then I must be lying when I say I prefer the 10 man raid format.

Sometimes, wearing "appropriate" gear isn't good enough, and, much like feeling obliged to run 10s for additional badges, we feel obliged to find 25man runs to be able to "finish" our characters. Blizzard is making this change because they have watched thousands of players slogging through raids that they feel obliged to run for higher gear or more badges - raids that they could apparently choose not to, because it's silly to choose rewards over enjoyment after all - and yet they still keep dragging themselves through. They abolished the 4-lockout format of TOC for a similar reason - people LOATHED doing the same one-room raid four times a week (plus more, on alts), but they felt they had to. Over and over and over, despite hating it. So the "don't do it if you don't enjoy it" argument doesn't fly.




TLDR: Gray - while nobody is "forced" to run raids, many still feel obliged, for whatever reason. Just because you think gear vs enjoyment is an easy or logical choice to make, doesn't make it so. And just because someone feels obliged to run 25s to improve their character doesn't make their statement that they prefer 10s false.

Maestro-
I think you misunderstood what I was saying about gear scaling. I'm saying that, approaching both 10m heroic and 25m normal with the same gear, it's easy to see where Blizzard failed to scale things accordingly to be equal when it came to 10 man. Also, as I said, if Blizzard manages to scale things appropriately, then I will not complain about it. All I am saying is it's just plain ignorant to ignore past experiences, and those past experiences have shown that they tried to do this before and could not. I'm not writing Blizzard angry letters because honestly I am going to see how this turns out. These are my thoughts as to why I am going to approach their attempts to balance with a very very critical eye.

I am sorry but any 25 man guild where 1 person is doing all of the work and 24 people aren't contributing more than just showing up, that guild is doing it wrong, or at least making things worse than necessary for that one person. It's like a company. Yes the owner of the company has a lot of important decisions to make, but no company is without a chain of responsibility and because of this not all of the responsibility falls on one person. This whole notion that 25 man raids mean "1 person tries hard by organizing and 24 others show up and get loot" is just plain incorrect when it comes to a lot of guilds that work well. That's why many guilds have an officer system or council system.

Also, you are right. Contribution and effort are two different things. The point I'm trying to make is that in highly tuned 25 mans, even though that one DPS is only responsible for of 1/18th of the DPS done to the encounter, that one person not doing adequately can definitely have a hurtful (or even wipe causing) impact on the raid. The same goes for 1/5th of the healing (depending on your raid comp) or 1/2 of the tanking. This is what I mean by a well tuned encounter.

In general -
I know there are a lot of tears for raid leaders, and I really do appreciate their efforts. I know leading a raid is more difficult than sitting there and getting invited. But I also know that a smart raid leader will divide up their responsibilities as mentioned above to make things run smoothly for everyone, so by those standards we also need to be appreciative of loot masters, class leaders, role leaders, heal assigners, or whatever other things happen to be divvied up. You bring up the time sink it takes to organize things, and quite honestly that's a price someone has to pay to make more complicated things happen. I think that the fruits of their labor should scale accordingly.

@Maestro "What percentage of damage or healing or prevented damage are you responsible for? It is greater in a 10 man."
While this seems to be an easy assumption (25>10) its simply not the case. Because we have used the Blood Queen example twice I will stick with it.

First let’s start with the basics of this math problem. I am going to go with conservative numbers here because I am not going to assume we are over gearing this fight. So that means for a 10 man group we have 2 tanks, 3 healers and 5 dps. For 25 man we have 2 tanks 6 healers and 17 dps.

10 Man Blood Queen has 14.2 million health.
This requires 11,137dps per person (5 dps)
50% of your raid is DPS
25 Man Blood Queen had 59.4 million health.
This requires 13,702dps per person (17 dps)
68% of your raid is DPS

So what we see here is that in 25 man you must do 21% more dps, but you only have 18% more of your raid can contribute to dps.

Now let’s take a look at healing.

10 Man Blood Queen deals 4500 damage to all raid members every 3 seconds
That is a total of 45,000 damage every 3 seconds
That means each healer must put out 15,000hp of heals every 3 seconds

25 Man Blood Queen deals 4500 damage to all raid members every 3 seconds
That is a total of 112,500 damage every 3 seconds
That means each healer must put out 18,750hp of heals every 3 seconds

That means each healer in 25 man is responsible for 20% more healing every 3 seconds then those in 10 man. Because this damage does not change between 10 and 25, and the Bloodbolt Whirl damage also does not change we can assume the exact same percentage of heals required.

And because Pact of the Darkfallen was brought up.
10 Man Blood Queen PotD causes all raid members to take 5000 damage every 2 seconds until effect is canceled
That is a total of 50,000 damage every 2 seconds
That means each healer must heal 16,666hp every 2 seconds

25 Man Blood Queen PotD causes all raid members to take 5000 damage every 2 seconds until effect is canceled
That is a total of 125,000 damage every 2 seconds
That means each healer must heal 20,833hp every 2 seconds

Again each healer is responsible for 20% more healing every 2 seconds in 25 man. That only assumes that the debuff will last the same amount of time. Pact of the Darkfallen will never be cast on the tanks, or more then 1 melee. This means in 25 man due to spreading requirements the second 2 targets of PotD will likely have to travel far enough to create and additional tick that wouldn’t happen in 10 man. That’s 125,000 extra damage that 10 man wouldn’t see.

I could go into tank damage, but I assure you it will yield the same result.

Now there may be other fights were the math doesn’t come out the same way, but I used the example you brought up first, not one I picked because the math was right. Now I know the first argument for my math here is “But if we lose 1 dps in 10 man that’s 20% of our total dps gone, and in 25 man you lose 1 dps, its only 6% of your dps…” My response is if you lose just 1 dps that is likely the fault of the dps. When you have 250% more people in your raid that means the chance of someone making a mistake is over 3 times more likely. And let’s be real here folks. When was the last time you saw only 1 person die to a fight mechanic on Blood Queen before you outgeared the fight?

I'm still not understanding you, I suppose. Many guilds had trouble with the bosses in ICC before the buff became active and they were able to upgrade tier gear. The same is true of ICC hardmodes in 10 man. We don't see this impact as sharply because we've got a 20% buff on top of the gear we should have walked in with. I'm just not seeing the validity of this argument.

As far as the ignorance of ignoring past experiences, they just don't exist. Never did Blizzard try to balance the same encounter at two different levels to "feel" about the same difficulty. This will be the first time that they attempt it. Now, you've brought up different tiers of content and how they feel when 1 tier is equivalent in item value to another. But keep in mind that Blizzard also changed some mechanics in order to change the fight in the 10 man tier. Again, I just can't validate the parallels here. Too many variables are changing (or have been marked for change) to use past experience as an extrapolation point. It's exactly what people did when 40s became 10s and 25s and they were wrong.

In my old guild, we had 5-6 officers at any given time. Of those, 1-2 worked on recruitment, 3 worked on scheduling, and 1 lead the raids. But that still leaves the vast majority only showing up. When you're going to miss a raid, you don't find your replacement, you tell your officer. There's really no added work for those remaining people. So to imply that the extra work involved in setting up a 25 man should encompass all of the raiders is simply false. Now you want to reward all for the efforts of a few. Yes, there are driven individuals within any guild. But their work shouldn't be the basis for what the majority receives, so I feel that this is a faulty base from which to argue. I'll say it again (and nothing you can say will change my viewpoint here): The majority of raiders do not contribute to the "extra effort" required to organize and run a 25 man. I've been on both sides of the fence and I can firmly say that many players are happy to let others do the organizing and just show up at the allocated time.

In my opinion, any encounter that is well designed should be able to be destroyed by one bad player. It's the opportunities for this that should be different. I am guessing your talking about defile, and this is a very hard ability to balance. Perhaps one way is to change the rate at which it expands so that each person on a ten man causes it to grow 2.5 times as fast since every player represents 2.5 players in the 25 man. I only offer this suggestion as proof that balancing can be done (even if that was not a particularly elegant solution) and that I really don't feel that you're giving the idea a fair shake.

Any officers that make a guild run smoothly (class, raid, recruitment, social, role, etc) will like be present in a 10 man guild as well. I guess I'm of the mind that a person who chooses to lead a raid makes that choice based on some desire and if that desire is getting fulfilled, then that is reward enough.

@Keeva Gray - while nobody is "forced" to run raids, many still feel obliged, for whatever reason. Just because you think gear vs enjoyment is an easy or logical choice to make, doesn't make it so. And just because someone feels obliged to run 25s to improve their character doesn't make their statement that they prefer 10s false."

I think you have missed Graylo's point here. He isn't saying that if you run 25 mans for 25 man gear you must not like 10 mans. What he said is Gear is more importent to you then which raid format you run.

When you say:
"It's about improvement beyond what is currently available to us "by default"."

By default any level 80 character is available to run 10man and 25man raids.

But when you say:
"It's NOT about bigger numbers being more important. It's not about shiny epics."
Thats just not true. The only difference between 25 man and 10 man gear is just numbers (ilvl and stats). The gear even uses the same skins between them.

To say you want to improve your character, but its not about the numbers is a contradiction.

@anon 1 -

Sorry this is gonna sound really dismissive, but you're using an encounter that is tuned to have the 10 man be easier than the 25 man to prove that the 10 man is easier than the 25 man. Of course it is. The point with the Pact of the Darkfallen was it's mechanic allowed interesting interactions with 10 and 25 man formats.

@ anon 2 -

Why shouldn't 25 man raiders have to make the same choice? (gear or enjoyment)

No, anon, I haven't missed his point.

Here is a direct quote: "If the 10man size was more important then these things then you wouldn't participate in the 25man size. You can try and dress it up anyway you like, but it all means the same thing."

He is saying that you can't say "I like 10s, I don't really like 25s" but then still do 25man raids for whatever reason, because you mustn't be telling the truth - because if you really truly disliked 25s, you would stop doing them. I'm saying that it is not that cut and dried; historically many people have done raids that they didn't want to do, because they felt obliged. TOC is a perfect example. This doesn't mean that they are fibbing when they say they don't want to do them.

"What he said is Gear is more importent to you then which raid format you run."

Yes, this is true - because maximising my character is marginally more important to me than the discomfort or inconvenience I experience in running raids that I don't particularly like, outside of the ones that I do. OR, the obligation I feel to my guild and friends is stronger - raiding with them in a format that I dislike a little is what I choose over raiding without them in a format that I do.

This doesn't mean I'm telling untruths when I say "I prefer 10s".

The point that I was making is that you can't just say "You say you don't like 25s, but you keep running them - so you mustn't be telling the whole truth when you say you don't want to do them." This is false.


"By default any level 80 character is available to run 10man and 25man raids."

You have missed my point here. By "default" I meant that a 10man raider gets 10 man gear, a 25man raider gets 25man gear, by default, because these are the "normal" raids that they run. And from these normal, everyday raids, the 25man raider is basically getting his BIS gear "by default" (10man BiS items excepted of course), where the 10man raider has to leave his preferred raid format to improve his gear past this "default". 10 man strict raiders have a nice black and white BiS list from 10mans, but many non-strict raiders feel that they are stuck in non-BiS gear, and that's not good enough, feeling that you're stuck wearing middle of the road gear unless you go do 25s.

"To say you want to improve your character, but its not about the numbers is a contradiction."

No, it isn't, I'm sorry, but you're wrong. I don't want the best gear so that I know I have 5000 spellpower and can pull 20k DPS in a raid. Perhaps you can't see it that way, but it's the truth. I don't feel satisfied sitting in mid-tier gear. It's not about the prestige of having "heroic" on my gear, or seeing my stats growing, or getting new crit records. I couldn't even tell you my spellpower is right now, or how much I crit for.

Other than for the fact that I enjoy killing dragons, I raid to do things with my guild, and to "complete" my character. It's not for the numbers. The numbers come with that, of course, because that's what happens with upgrades - but I don't dwell on the numbers or the shinies. I do it because I know I am getting close to my character being completed.

For many people it IS about the numbers. I wouldn't deny that. But for me, it's not. You can try to tell me that it is, but you would be wrong.

Just a heads up, I am Anon 1 and 2 ;^ )

I wasn't trying to prove 10 man's were easier (everyone knows they are). I was trying to point out to you that your assertion that:
I'm looking at sheer numerical contribution to the raid. What percentage of damage or healing or prevented damage are you responsible for? It is greater in a 10 man."
Your entire assertion for this part of the argument hinges on you feeling that 10 mans must contribute more per person then 25's. The math clearly shows this is not correct.

If you feel there is an encounter out there were per person a 10 man raid must contribute more dps/health pool/healing percentage wise per pseron point it out, and we can do the math there. The only one I have ever seen was Sarth 3D which Blizzard said they made a mistake on (ie unintended) its challenge level.

As all 10 mans in WotLK (minus Sarth 3D) were desinged to be easier, I am confused how you can assert that a 10 man raiders contribution is more (percentage wise only) then a 25 man whe you already agree that all the encounters are designed to be easier.

Currently 10 man raids are easier in every way. Based on raw numbers if you were to boost the requirements of 10man by 20% the raids will still be easier for putting together, and avoiding boss mechinecs. The reason I don't see them being able to get around this is Blizzard is doing this new plan to please the largest part of their raiding population "casuals".

Now I don't believe "Casual" is a bad word, nor are they worse then me because they choose to play the game different then I do. Casual also does not = 10 man raider. However a majority of 10 man raiding guilds are more casual. If you bring 10 man raiding requirements up to par with 25 man requirements (again pure percentage of contibution) you are going to do what BC did (but to a lesser degree) and shut out more of your biggest raiding demagraphic. Now they won't do this, or if they do by mistake it will get nerfed pretty quick.

@ anon 1,2,3 -

I think you're missing a crucial piece in your argument. You're basing your analysis on a raid where 10 and 25 mans are not balanced. I'm basing my comparison on the proposed system that would have 10 and 25 man raids at equal difficulties (and presumably equal damage throughput on splash damages such as those we are discussing).

Your second paragraph shows this to be even more true, issuing a challenge that is fundamentally flawed because it is working with unbalanced 10s and 25s. Don't lose sight of the main point here: 25 mans should get better loot because they are somehow harder even when 10s and 25s have been balanced to be equally difficult.

Again, let me state, we're not talking about the system as it exists. We are talking about the system that Blizzard is putting forth and discussing the merits of assigning identical loot to both formats.

Unfortunately, for 10's to become more popular, it means 25's need to get less popular. Due to increasing the support for 10's, they have to piss off people who want to be able to sustain 25's. Since there is no way to make the 10's & 25's actually equal, a switch to 10-man popularity could potentially kill out most 25-man guilds, which seems to be a risk Blizzard is willing to take, but it's going to make a section of their player base unhappy regardless of what they do.

Once most 25-mans dissolve into 10's, there is no way for Blizzard to take it back and prop 25's back up. They just become obsolete and get removed from the game eventually, due to a lack of motivation & support.

As long as players live in the same world (realm) with others doing a different format, it will be impossible to separate the two raids, force players to make a choice and expect them to choose the one giving lesser gear.

You dont only need gear to whack at the given boss. Gear serves much more purposes than that.

1) PVP.
Pve gear is used in PvP and the best pvp-ers have access to the best pve Gear. Humans with dual pve trinkets, Shadowmourne facerollers, even weapons such as Bryntroll, Nibelung, Trinkets as DFO, Reign, DBW, PNL all spell a major advantage in PVP, advantage which players doing the 10 mans will just have to do without.

2)Switching between the two formats: If a 25man raider decides to switch to 10man he will be the new star of the guild. If a 10 man raider tries to do the same, the only answer he'll get will be: "lol get som gear nub"

3) Pugs and Gearscore.No matter if you are a 10 or 25 man raider it will come a time where you will need to pug. If your guild breaks up or if u are left behind for a week you will have to do it. And because of your lower gearscore you will be rejected if you are a 10 man raider.

4) Social Status. If 25 mans give better gear no matter what those players will be l33t and the rest will be scrubs.

As long as the gear handed out in raids is used for more than that particular raid, giving out better gear will attract all the players.

"So what we see here is that in 25 man you must do 21% more dps, but you only have 18% more of your raid can contribute to dps. "

This was related to BQL specifically, but it wouldn't surprise me that most fights have about the same difference. So it seems 25-man *must be* harder than 10-man, right?

Until you remember the fact that 25-man raid buffs will give you probably 25% more damage than 10-man raid buffs (at least on my rogue, I'm usually around 25% higher dps in 25-mans). Even compared to a well-configured 10-man, the difference overall is likely to be at least 20%.

And that's just raid buffs. Consider the difference based on gear levels and holes in itemization from only 10-man gear, and suddenly the 25-man version starts to look somewhat easier.