Hey Rel! I remember when making an auction sniper for E-Bay was very easy. They ended up making bid-sniping a bit more difficult than it was previously to sort of foil those programs, I think Blizzard would employ those tactics as well if they had to. I am very excited that hit is going to be a blue stat, although I don't know how I will feel when Blizzard removes so many stat choices to reduce "confusion" :x

The remote access to the AH part I don't have a problem with. The free features are great, and provide nothing you wouldn't get in game already just sitting there at the AH (except viewing items in bank and mail in addition to bags. Not sure how I feel about this but since it is free I guess everyone can do it.) The main advantages the subscription will provide is the ability to relist items direct from the mailbox and autocollect gold - and this is where I take issue. These are additional features, something that cannot be done in-game right now. These features are not something that should be provided as an extra pay-for service. This is something that should have been there from the beginning. I'll elaborate on this later...

I think rather than expanding the remote accessibility of their auction system Blizzard should instead have focused on making the auction system a better experience. As it stands you put an item up for sale, name a price, and hope it sells. The moment you get undercut, even by 1 copper, you have essentially no chance of selling your item until the one below yours sells and so your deposit fee is forfeit. If you're willing to, you can cancel your auction, run to the mailbox to get it, come back to the AH, and relist it. In short, this is an awful system.

For an example of how it should be done, one need look no farther than EVE Online. I can't speak much for the gameplay itself - it has a rather high barrier of entry and it can take months before you actually feel like you have an understanding of the game as a whole - but I have nothing but praise for their implementation of their auction house equivalent. A brief comparison:

EVE's system:
-Tracks sale price averages for the past 5 days, 20 days, sale volume, and probably more that I can't even remember over time for months, providing a plethora of data at your fingertips and allowing even a newcomer to the system to make informed buying and selling decisions.
-Allows for placement of buy orders. Someone wanting to buy something but not happy with the current market price can express their interest to the market. If a supplier willing to sell at the requested price comes along the two can complete a transaction, even if the buyer has gone offline.
-Allows you to modify the sell price of something you currently have up for sale without canceling completely (just imagine how much mailbox spam this would save in WoW). There is a fee for modifying the sale price same as it would be for canceling and re listing.
-Has safeguard warnings if you are about to buy something that is highly overpriced compared to the average, or sell something at a price very low under the average. Remember the time you bought that auction in WoW where you missed the extra 0?
-Allows for bulk purchase orders. Just insert I want 200 of an item and the system will automatically select from the available auctions the cheapest way to get at least 200 of said item. Not only that, it will choose them from the auctions available in the current space station you are at, within the solar system, within neighboring solar systems out a certain number of warp jumps away, or from the entire region depending on your filter settings (not that this applies to WoW but this is yet another demonstration of EVE's database capabilities). Again yes this can be done in WoW, but yet again requires a mod.

Conversely the WoW system:
-Has absolutely no data tracking beyond the current auctions for sale, unless you get a mod that will track it for you. The argument can definitely be made that tracking detailed data would be a burden to the server, but again, somehow EVE manages to do this data tracking for thousands upon thousands of items across individual planets, solar systems, and regions. Also what burden is being placed on the WoW system by the people tracking this data themselves by constantly scanning the AH?
-Has no way for the buyer to exert their influence on the system, aside from hoping the seller of a particular item is online and they can verbally negotiate a lower price with them. Beyond this, there is no choice for a buyer but to accept what is available for purchase, to not buy at all, or to spam in the festering pit that is Trade chat.
-Requires full auction cancellation and a trip to a mailbox just to adjust sale price by even 1 copper. This system inherently creates stagnation in the market. When two sellers of the same item start a price war, the winner is automatically the one willing to run back and forth to the mailbox more times, not the one willing to sell at the lowest price. This is where the subscription service is bilking the regular players, this is not just more convenient access this is a new feature to the game that is being charged for. AH players with the ability to relist from their mailbox with a button click have a distinct, even if small, advantage over those having to run back and forth to the mailbox. Not to mention a huge convenience advantage.
-Does not allow bulk purchase orders without a mod. Newcomer to the system trying to buy 200 of something that stacks to 20? Have fun sorting through each individual listing to find the best price per unit value.

TL:DR - The WoW AH system is horribly under-featured, there are examples of better ways to do it out there (primarily EVE), and if Blizzard wants to provide remote AH access that's fine, but they are doing more than that - they're charging for remote access to a _BETTER_ AH than the one currently in game. I think this is the reason people are worried more now than ever about the slippery slope. This is not some cosmetic pet or mount or trading card gizmo like before. No, in effect this is new, extra game functionality - however small it may be perceived (and I don't think it's even that small) - being offered for an additional fee. If this sells well I don't doubt we'll see new features masked as "conveniences" on offer soon enough.

You'll have to forgive me if I missed parts of your post that you felt were relevant, it was a doosie of a comment.

First, I like that WoW requires an addon to track market data and requires you to be physically present within the game to collect such data. That's very much like a real world economy where you have to be present to track the data or pay someone else to do it. Computers have trivialized such tasks, but we're all not engineers.

As far as buying overpriced items, caveat emptor! If people aren't paying attention they deserve to get ripped off. One should always be a cautious buyer.

I agree that the buy order thing would be nice, but it's jut a more permanent version of the trade channel. Bulk buying would also be nice.

I think that buyers can exert plenty of influence in the market. With the gold surplus in WoW recently, people are able to switch professions at the drop of a dime. Given that many players have alts, they don't even need to change professions. They just have to log over and undercut.

I think Blizzard intended the AH to be a profiteering business run by the company. A type of gold control. The "free trade" that you're talking about (penalty free re-listing etc) is what Trade was made for. Unfortunately, it's degraded to a useless p.o.s. But I had the distinct feeling that Blizzard wanted us to work for our sales. Maybe they shoulda made Thrall'sList or something.

I do agree that the new Remote AH is bringing new functionality to the game for a small fee. I am willing to bet we will shortly see an updated AH UI that will allow us to relist expired items without tripping to the mailbox.

Seems I can't stop remembering good things about EVE's system. You also don't have to choose between listing single items or grouped items. Say you have 20 flasks you want to sell, in EVE you would pick a price per unit and list your 20 and if someone wanted to buy 5 of them they could, and your remaining 15 would still be up for sale at the same price per unit. In WoW you have to consider if you want to list them 5 at a time, or 1 at a time, etc. And if you go with 1 at a time you get the fun experience of splitting the stack and listing each one, one at a time. Yet again this is another thing a mod can help you with but when so much additional mod functionality is needed just to interface with the WoW AH in a way that doesn't make you want to scream, you know it's something Blizzard didn't get right.

Regarding the data collection I have to disagree. In the real world I can go to Google and type any stock ticker into it and get the chart of stock prices from the company's inception to the current date. Not only that it links news stories relevant to the company automatically. I didn't have to be physically present while this data was collected or an engineer to obtain it, in fact I hardly had to exert myself at all. This doesn't just apply to stocks either, the historic prices of oil, coal, nickel, pork futures, and so on can all be found with minimal work. Yes the data is potentially old and that can make a huge difference to people trading minute to minute, but I think we can both agree having this data available is a huge difference from seeing only "COKE is selling for 49.73 right now" which is the current WoW system.

Regarding buy orders being a more permanent trade chat, I think you mean to say buy orders are a trade chat with -any- permanence whatsoever. If you want to go outside a city to maybe play some other aspect of the game, or perhaps log off for the night, your trade chat "buy order" is gone because you are no longer there to spam it. Also for most of us we have play hours set by what time zone we're in, jobs we work, etc. The AH sellers get the advantage of having their sale posted to all players at all times. Buyers can only reach sellers for the limited time they are on and only though a channel cluttered with nonsense most of the time.

The multi-alt multi-profession strategy you described is the exact result of the buyer having no influence on the market. It's essentially the "not to buy" choice, ie the buyer decided the prices were too high and since they have no method to express their desire for lower prices to the seller they decided to circumvent the market completely and create a path where they can obtain the good for themselves directly. The potential buyer has become a seller because that's how slanted the WoW system is towards the seller.

I don't propose penalty-free relisting, probably easy to miss in my wall of text but EVE charges for any type of relisting. Be it a full cancellation where the item comes back to your inventory, or an on the fly adjustment, there is a fee involved. There's just less time wasting by forcing the player to run a circular path between two arbitrary points in order to re-list their items. I would definitely maintain a fee for re-listing or price adjusting, it provides necessary market friction.

I'm not opposed to Blizzard wanting us to have to "work for our sales" as you put it, but the system is broken now because working for sales amounts to getting the right mods and configuring them. If you're using the default UI trying to compete with people who will know within minutes that their auctions were undercut and have them relisted before you've even listed 10 more items, you're going to be there for infinite time and make no gold. (The Thrall'sList would have been a great idea. Buyers could post "WTB").

I can only hope the AH UI is overhauled to be better. It's needed it for a long time.

You'll have to forgive me for mincing here, but we're in a world where we can't really build computers. So I'm talking about a system designed within the constraints of WoW. That system is free of electronic cataloging, which you used to find your information. In order to create such a catalog in that system, you would have to do exactly what Blizzard requires you to do. You would have to be physically present and in contact with the third party seller.

I think one major difference between EVE and WoW is the assumptions each universe is built on. In WoW, the Ancients built computers, but that technology has largely been lost. In EVE, it sounds as if the universe is exploding with technology.

I realize that arguing logic in a world filled with magic and based on imagined rules is futile, but I don't feel that it is inapplicable.

I didn't point it out, so let me just say that I agree with the majority of your points here, especially those dealing with stack and relisting convenience. I did miss the relisting thing in EVE so it sounds like that portion is pretty well done and would seem that it could fit in to WoW well.

I'm holding out for some new goodies on the UI. Not unlike those found in Auctioneer.

If we're delving into lore vs. game systems and implementation then there's no more argument to be had. The incongruities are boggling. Druids for the longest time could not root indoors, because it "made sense lorewise". But then they realized that this "lore" based restriction made for a gameplay mechanic that just felt clunky. So magically Druids learned to root indoors! They must have honed their magic abilities. That's just one of many many examples.

Would an improved AH interface be ok if the Draenei salvaged computer technology from their crashed ships? Or maybe the gnomes recovered technology from Gnomeregan in the upcoming reclamation? Give me a break. You were just one comment ago arguing how you liked the WoW system because it was like the real world, now you like it because it's not like the real world at all it fits with the WoW world. Make up your mind.

And you don't have to do what Blizzard "requires." There's been mods that will continually scan the AH to collect the sales volumes, price history, and all that data available for a long time. Set it up click the button walk away. Are the people willing to get mods and run them nonstop more entitled to information than everyone else? I say no. If anything these people are lagging up the system for the normal users. They certainly put in far more scan requests than everyone else. Advantage bots/mod users disadvantage everyone else should not be the name of the game, whether it fits with lore or not.

I'm sorry, but I don't see the relationship between game mechanics lore and time period/available technology. It'd be like comparing available combat pets to non-combat pets and pining for a diablo combat-pet. I see a vast difference between caving on a lore aspect to balance gameplay and providing frivolous niceties that aren't consistent with the predetermined technology of the world you play in.

I think the Draenei salvage mission sounds fine. I know you wrote that to be sarcastic, but it would provide the proper background for having the functionality that you are requesting. Currently, all we have are glorified bookies.

As for making up my mind, I'm sorry if you thought I actually believed people continually kept calling companies asking for stock information or individually followed a companies purchase/sale information in order to decide when to buy a product. When I made that statement, I made it within the context of the game, as I do with every other statement I make on a blog that is directed towards the game. My stance has been consistent: This is how you'd have to do business in an environment like WoW. Not to say there aren't some inconveniences that could be remedied (such as relisting auctions w/o grabbing the item out of your mailbox) but that doesn't mean that there should be a full-blown EVE-type AH.

Your last paragraph talks about violating the EULA. There will always be people that do this, and I'm assuming that regardless of the system, a certain number of these folks will not be stopped. Arguing based on what they might do is also pointless. For every system set up, there is someone out there who will try to bend it or break it for their advantage. But again, that's not really a viable platform to launch a "for the masses" discussion, as you seemed to be doing.

Also, you seem to have mistaken my entire view of the AH. I don't like it or dislike it per se. I am only observing that it seems to fit well within the structure of the game. The point of my original post was to bring to light my concerns about laying the foundation for a heavy microtransaction environment within the game, not to flaunt the merits or demerits of the current AH system. To that end, I'm done discussing this topic as it is clear you want an EVE based AH and I am largely indifferent.

I'm still left bewildered as to why you would want some of the inconveniences remedied but not all of them or as many as technically possible (we're talking server client technically here not "what's relevant for the WoW universe" technically). Auctioneer was what I was referring to and it's hardly any violation of the EULA. One click and it will scan the entire AH and print you out average price info for anything you want. Do that over several days and now you have price history. Were you there physically? Hardly. You logged on and clicked a button I guess, but soon enough you won't even have to log on. Are you using "time period/available technology?" Not at all, you're having your own computer munge all the data for you once these apparently light-speed glorified bookies hand it to you. Do you have a huge information advantage over people not using Auctioneer or something similar? Absolutely. You can be a bot without violating the EULA, it's not at all hard. (And I mean without violating the EULA not violating it without getting caught.)

If the current WoW AH fits well within the structure of the game addons like Auctioneer are like dropping the equivalent of a supercomputer by the fountain in Stormwind and then saying it fits the structure well. The EVE style AH already exists in WoW, but only if you go get all the addons to make it that way. The underlying (broken) mechanics are all still there, just hidden away, automated, or utterly minimized by the mods. Why not make the underlying mechanics all be convenient? Because it would put the mod makers out of business?

You found me out by the way I do want an EVE style AH. And if you've ever used a mod to make your interface with the AH in WoW more convenient or faster or to provide you with information that figuring by hand would bore you to tears to do, in some small sense you want the EVE style AH too.

My thought is store complex data server side rather than make it necessary for people client side to bash the server with mod scan requests constantly to get that data. I get the feeling a lot of people are against these sorts of changes because widespread data availability would destroy their mod-gathered "secrets" and they wouldn't be able to ream the end consumers for all the gold that they do now.

Rounding out on the time period/available technology once more... if whatever "technology" is in place allows for some 30 thousand plus auctions to be tracked with live updates to anyone who asks for them, at any hour of the day, I think that "technology" might be able to do a bit of adding and a division to give an average price too. At the very least. Clearly they don't sleep to begin with, it's always the same auctioneers there all the time. But Blizz probably caved on that because the gameplay would be horrible if the AH actually had to close for the night, even if it made sense from a time period standpoint.